11 hr
Anne-Marie LaMonde
Yes. The only clues are that your last name is missing and Voice Chat Option is also missing in the Title Bar.
The Biker Cafe (3 people)
Saturday at 4:10pmSent from Web
Anne-Marie LaMonde
For what it's worth, I'd like to share this filtered PM message (that I didn't know I had until I discovered it. The thing that is interesting is when I said, "Another bites the dust" I was not referencing Queen. Poorly chosen words brings the ire of people if they feel unjustly accused. I literally meant (no kidding) another misunderstood, mishandled, misread individual who cannot enter the world of social media because there is a code of conduct that is all too often very tricky for some to navigate...
I have absolutely nothing against David Markham except that he didn't ask me, "What do you mean by that A-M? Isn't that a little harsh?" Or he didn't try to get to know me in any way. Maybe he couldn't. Actually I don't remember him at all (that's kind of sad) and had to write to you Rebecca to find out who he was. But then realized it wasn't worth knowing.
I'm writing this because as all three of you know perfectly well...things get blown out of proportion on social media (and it's not just because it's the written word, it's because threatening postures can't be read early enough. So the only thing that is left is rude language to express downright anger).
I'm sharing this because I think you three would agree that this picture paints a rather grim and fairly untrue picture of me. Yet...that is what he sensed and felt. So...in my view. I still have work to do...
I have absolutely nothing against David Markham except that he didn't ask me, "What do you mean by that A-M? Isn't that a little harsh?" Or he didn't try to get to know me in any way. Maybe he couldn't. Actually I don't remember him at all (that's kind of sad) and had to write to you Rebecca to find out who he was. But then realized it wasn't worth knowing.
I'm writing this because as all three of you know perfectly well...things get blown out of proportion on social media (and it's not just because it's the written word, it's because threatening postures can't be read early enough. So the only thing that is left is rude language to express downright anger).
I'm sharing this because I think you three would agree that this picture paints a rather grim and fairly untrue picture of me. Yet...that is what he sensed and felt. So...in my view. I still have work to do...
Saturday at 4:13pmSent from Web
Anne-Marie LaMonde
What I mean is I still have work to think carefully what I say and to say what I mean. To be fair and logical, kind and ethical, never flippant or haphazard in my thoughts...
and expressions...
Saturday at 4:15pmSent from Web
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Whoever he is, he is not worth getting upset over! This is clearly all about his own issues and anger. If you want to consider his behavior as an interesting question, go for it and enjoy. But do NOT let someone who would treat you that way upset you. I tend to be pretty sensitive in some ways, but, oddly, I am not even upset about Jesse's behavior last night, because I know that he just wasn't coming from a sane or rational place. So it has nothing to do with me. Though I will say... I'm a bit a afraid of him, and very much hope never to have contact with him again. I wouldn't want him ever to know my whereabouts, for instance. He could be dangerous. At least that's my impression... and, in a way, that's the most important thing: fear itself is very frightening.
Saturday at 4:30pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
David Markham and I have never been FB Friends, and (near as I can tell) we've never even cross-posted comments on the same threads (at least not in TBC). FB says we have but one Friend in common. In short, I don't know him from Adam.
There is a pattern I have observed over the years that is worth mentioning here, regarding intemperate, impertinent, and bullying remarks like that. Given one of life's unsolved problems, one (unethical) method of solving it is to pick someone who is apparently well-above average at problem solving and abruptly dump an instance of the problem in their lap, to see if they respond with a functional solution that the problem-plagued soul can adopt as their own, going forward.
As near as I can tell (mostly from my own personal experience with this pattern) the most likely individuals to pull this stunt are those who are manifesting the personality trait associated Axis II Cluster 'B' pathologies. And (not surprisingly) the most commonly selected targets are the brainy types, including those manifesting Asperger's Syndrome (e.g. Systems Thinkers).
Sometimes, one can act back a functional solution, sometimes not. But it's not hard to recognize the pattern when it recurs enough times to define a recognizable pattern.
When I cannot act back a solution, then the episode becomes a story, a misadventure if you will. It is not my style to translate the misadventures of life into copious anecdotes and stories. I'd rather abstract them into theories.
But when I am at a loss for a reliable theory, I have been known to memorialize such misadventures in the form of a send-up song parody, allegory, or comic opera.
There is a pattern I have observed over the years that is worth mentioning here, regarding intemperate, impertinent, and bullying remarks like that. Given one of life's unsolved problems, one (unethical) method of solving it is to pick someone who is apparently well-above average at problem solving and abruptly dump an instance of the problem in their lap, to see if they respond with a functional solution that the problem-plagued
As near as I can tell (mostly from my own personal experience with this pattern) the most likely individuals to pull this stunt are those who are manifesting the personality trait associated Axis II Cluster 'B' pathologies. And (not surprisingly) the most commonly selected targets are the brainy types, including those manifesting Asperger's Syndrome (e.g. Systems Thinkers).
Sometimes, one can act back a functional solution, sometimes not. But it's not hard to recognize the pattern when it recurs enough times to define a recognizable pattern.
When I cannot act back a solution, then the episode becomes a story, a misadventure if you will. It is not my style to translate the misadventures of life into copious anecdotes and stories. I'd rather abstract them into theories.
But when I am at a loss for a reliable theory, I have been known to memorialize such misadventures in the form of a send-up song parody, allegory, or comic opera.
Saturday at 4:40pm
Anne-Marie LaMonde
I'm just really indifferent to slander from someone I don't know from Adam. I only get upset if I've shared my past openly and have it used to manipulate me. That is not the case here as I can't recall a single exchange. But it is clear that I'm a very open person on a very public site. I took the lead from the Dalai Lama when he said, "Show yourself." I think we hurt ourselves when we live in secret. And that is what I love about forums on FB and why I absolutely loved Stephanie's post. It was the most refreshing and honest respective I'd read without all the citations and peer reviewed papers that frankly have bored me now since I ended grad school before social media and science magazines went bezerk.
I was just showing this to demonstrate the lack of self control to step in someone else's shoes. This isn't about empathy per se (it's not about treating me with kid gloves and worrying about my sensibilities that I care about, it's respectful discourse I want). Sure it's damn hard to hear something that might suggest you're damn wrong, but if it is said with kindness and love (not underlying contempt) then it's all good in my books.
I was just showing this to demonstrate the lack of self control to step in someone else's shoes. This isn't about empathy per se (it's not about treating me with kid gloves and worrying about my sensibilities that I care about, it's respectful discourse I want). Sure it's damn hard to hear something that might suggest you're damn wrong, but if it is said with kindness and love (not underlying contempt) then it's all good in my books.
Saturday at 5:57pmSent from Messenger
Saturday at 5:58pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
I've occasionally had someone try to turn one of my past misadventures into an indictment against me. There is a pattern to my misadventures; they occur when I come up against someone undertaking to exercise political power over me, when that person has departed significantly from ethical best practices.
In the most memorable case, the individual in question ran for public office, got elected, and then got called before the ethics commission for a breach of ethics. He was not re-elected.
In the most memorable case, the individual in question ran for public office, got elected, and then got called before the ethics commission for a breach of ethics. He was not re-elected.
Saturday at 6:50pm
Barry Kort
By the time one has earned a Ph.D. in a STEM discipline, one has gotten way past the fear of going down a fruitless avenue where one's favored hypothesis has bitten the dust. The Nobel-Prize Winning Chemist, Linus Pauling, observed that the only way to have one good idea is to have 20 ideas and ruthlessly discard the ones that don't pan out.
"If you want to have good ideas you must have many ideas. Most of them will be wrong, and what you have to learn is which ones to throw away." ~Linus Pauling
"If you want to have good ideas you must have many ideas. Most of them will be wrong, and what you have to learn is which ones to throw away." ~Linus Pauling
Saturday at 6:56pm
Saturday at 6:57pm
Saturday at 8:51pmSent from Messenger
Saturday at 9:47pm
Barry Kort
The very first computer diagnostic message I ever saw (back in the 1960s) routinely appeared on Operator's Console of the big IBM System/360 Mainframe Computer.
It simply read: Intervention Required (followed by the identity of the unit needing operator attention).
Some 30 years ago, it occurred to me that a number of otherwise alarming, unexpected, or startling emotional expressions coming from Carbon Units (e.g. Homo Schleppians) amounted to the same plaintive cry for help: Intervention Required.
Dismissing or discarding the Carbon Unit issuing a startling or unexpected cry for help is arguably shy of the Ethical Best Practice. At the very least, one might take the erratic unit offline and run some diagnostic tests (e.g. "Can you tell me what's wrong?")
There is a highly respected professional here on FB whom we all know and love. And yet one day, this individual uncharacteristically opened a PM to me and wrote just two words: "FUCK YOU"
It was a startling outburst that was out of character for this person.
Now and then, one hits a raw nerve where one least expects to find a vulnerable sensitivity. And then it was over, like a brief Fourth of July firecracker. Normal operation resumed, much like it would after responding to an "Intervention Required" message on the Operator's Console.
I would like to see the same grace extended to other Carbon Units who occasionally blow a fuse.
It simply read: Intervention Required (followed by the identity of the unit needing operator attention).
Some 30 years ago, it occurred to me that a number of otherwise alarming, unexpected, or startling emotional expressions coming from Carbon Units (e.g. Homo Schleppians) amounted to the same plaintive cry for help: Intervention Required.
Dismissing or discarding the Carbon Unit issuing a startling or unexpected cry for help is arguably shy of the Ethical Best Practice. At the very least, one might take the erratic unit offline and run some diagnostic tests (e.g. "Can you tell me what's wrong?")
There is a highly respected professional here on FB whom we all know and love. And yet one day, this individual uncharacteristi
It was a startling outburst that was out of character for this person.
Now and then, one hits a raw nerve where one least expects to find a vulnerable sensitivity. And then it was over, like a brief Fourth of July firecracker. Normal operation resumed, much like it would after responding to an "Intervention Required" message on the Operator's Console.
I would like to see the same grace extended to other Carbon Units who occasionally blow a fuse.
Yesterday at 9:38am
Stephanie Wellen Levine
"Fuck you" is one thing: pretty generic. "You are the worst person I've ever met on the internet: such a narcissist, so arrogant. Get over yourself. You are making yourself part of the godhead: who do you think you are? You make me sick..." That's a whole other order of business. Someone who could say such a thing does not belong in civil company. I really don't want Jesse around. He frightens me.
Yesterday at 10:29amSent from Web
Barry Kort
Five thoughts come to mind ...
1) Were Jesse to reflect on his life on the screen, I doubt he would end up ranking you as his all-time worst antagonist.
2) I doubt this is the first time he has uttered a comparable expression of disdain to a correspondent.
3) I doubt this is the first time the phrase he uttered to you has ever resided in his consciousness, either as in input or as an output.
4) I'd bet dollars to donuts someone said something similar to him one or more times in the past, leaving him in a state of Narcissistic Wounding. And probably more than a single instance from a single source.
5) If the above four thoughts are accurate hypotheses, then it follows that he uttered them to you in the hope and expectation that you would construct a novel response that he could adopt going forward the next time someone said something similar to him.
Were I present at the time this fateful transaction occurred, I very likely would have intervened in a manner to confirm or falsify one or more of my hypotheses, above.
1) Were Jesse to reflect on his life on the screen, I doubt he would end up ranking you as his all-time worst antagonist.
2) I doubt this is the first time he has uttered a comparable expression of disdain to a correspondent.
3) I doubt this is the first time the phrase he uttered to you has ever resided in his consciousness, either as in input or as an output.
4) I'd bet dollars to donuts someone said something similar to him one or more times in the past, leaving him in a state of Narcissistic Wounding. And probably more than a single instance from a single source.
5) If the above four thoughts are accurate hypotheses, then it follows that he uttered them to you in the hope and expectation that you would construct a novel response that he could adopt going forward the next time someone said something similar to him.
Were I present at the time this fateful transaction occurred, I very likely would have intervened in a manner to confirm or falsify one or more of my hypotheses, above.
Yesterday at 11:57am
Anne-Marie LaMonde
I bet dollars to donuts Barry you are spot on.
Intervention is far more productive in most instances than expulsion. In fact, the ToM exercise between you and Mark Larkento failed because in all honesty, no one understood your procedure. No one. Not even me. Even though most of what you said made sense to me during the brief while I joined that off-shoot discussion, I could not bear the constant "narcissistic wounding." In other words, the heavy hearts that hung in that smaller forum outweighed the logic of your approach. Even I could not bear the weight of all those hearts shouting, "Stop ! I cannot think on this because it hurts too much !"
People hurt from their past, of course, but the past that is brought into the present is not the truth. It is only a painful recollection. If my brother were here, I am sure he would agree that before he left this world, he could ONLY focus on the joy and gratitude he felt in the time that he had left. He could not even be upset that his two children, who refused to speak to him even after learning of his diagnosis and knowing it was terminal, would choose to shun him further. He could not bring the hurtful past into the present because he had no time left. All we wanted was to savour the exquisite goodness, joy and love he had experienced here.
Barry, perhaps you will recall that were "savagely" attacked once when you described another situation as "narcissistic wounding" in yet another forum in which we had been invited to participate. The person who attacked you, was so angry with you, was surprising to me. But I think I get it. As you have been patiently repeating yourself over and over, I am finally getting it. It's like the teacher who never stops. Trying from hundreds of differing angles (that all seem the same to the student because there is "darkness" from each) until finally the student says, "Oh ! That's what this means !"
So please don't stop. Whatever you have been gifted in doing, you are doing it right.
Intervention is far more productive in most instances than expulsion. In fact, the ToM exercise between you and Mark Larkento failed because in all honesty, no one understood your procedure. No one. Not even me. Even though most of what you said made sense to me during the brief while I joined that off-shoot discussion, I could not bear the constant "narcissistic wounding." In other words, the heavy hearts that hung in that smaller forum outweighed the logic of your approach. Even I could not bear the weight of all those hearts shouting, "Stop ! I cannot think on this because it hurts too much !"
People hurt from their past, of course, but the past that is brought into the present is not the truth. It is only a painful recollection. If my brother were here, I am sure he would agree that before he left this world, he could ONLY focus on the joy and gratitude he felt in the time that he had left. He could not even be upset that his two children, who refused to speak to him even after learning of his diagnosis and knowing it was terminal, would choose to shun him further. He could not bring the hurtful past into the present because he had no time left. All we wanted was to savour the exquisite goodness, joy and love he had experienced here.
Barry, perhaps you will recall that were "savagely" attacked once when you described another situation as "narcissistic wounding" in yet another forum in which we had been invited to participate. The person who attacked you, was so angry with you, was surprising to me. But I think I get it. As you have been patiently repeating yourself over and over, I am finally getting it. It's like the teacher who never stops. Trying from hundreds of differing angles (that all seem the same to the student because there is "darkness" from each) until finally the student says, "Oh ! That's what this means !"
So please don't stop. Whatever you have been gifted in doing, you are doing it right.
Yesterday at 12:14pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 12:21pm
Barry Kort
Can't say that I recognize or recall the specific incident where you perceived that I was being "savaged" by a correspondent. I'm sure if I sat down to construct a comprehensive list of such episodes, experiences, and misadventures, I could probably list more than a dozen of them.
Indeed, of my 200 song parodies, more than half of them stem from personal episodes involving some element of Narcissistic Wounding.
I've written several blog posts on the phenomenon of Narcissistic Wounding. My send-ups, lampoons, song parodies, and comic operas are my whimsical attempt to laugh off this curious feature of human culture.
Indeed, of my 200 song parodies, more than half of them stem from personal episodes involving some element of Narcissistic Wounding.
I've written several blog posts on the phenomenon of Narcissistic Wounding. My send-ups, lampoons, song parodies, and comic operas are my whimsical attempt to laugh off this curious feature of human culture.
Yesterday at 12:28pm
Yesterday at 12:34pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
They are a bit of a Trojan Horse. The message is diluted and enrobed in humor.
As Mary Poppins would say, "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."
As Mary Poppins would say, "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."
Yesterday at 12:36pm
Yesterday at 12:37pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
If I were to construct an axis ranging from those most likely to gain a unit of insight from my whimsical bits to those least likely to gain a unit of insight, it would be the axis ranging from the Scientific Mindset to the Political Mindset.
The more a person resides in the world of politics, the less likely they are to appreciate my work.
That's why my successes in life reside in the STEM Culture, while my failures in life reside in the Political Culture.
The more a person resides in the world of politics, the less likely they are to appreciate my work.
That's why my successes in life reside in the STEM Culture, while my failures in life reside in the Political Culture.
Yesterday at 12:46pm
Yesterday at 12:52pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 1:21pm
Barry Kort
I'm a rank amateur when it comes to the arts. I reckon that's why I flunk out every time I have an encounter with a politician or a gatekeeper. I don't have the art of fooling them into thinking that science is not the enemy of politics.
Of course science is the enemy of politics. Just ask Socrates or Buddha, or Jesus, or Beckett or Galileo or Darwin or JK Rowling. Science has been in the business of overthrowing politics for the past 3200 years.
Of course science is the enemy of politics. Just ask Socrates or Buddha, or Jesus, or Beckett or Galileo or Darwin or JK Rowling. Science has been in the business of overthrowing politics for the past 3200 years.
Yesterday at 1:24pm
Anne-Marie LaMonde
But when you couple art and science, then you have a chance to offer artistry and clarity. Sometimes you need two people--the scientist and the artist--to work together in tangent to move people by the truth and bring precision to light.
As an artist, I am able to sense and feel a scientist's awkward artistry. For as Heidegger said, "Art is truth." But that statement has to be understood in the sense that all art forms are expressions of our soul, in good taste and in bad. It is the heart of the listener who can discern the wheat from the chaff.
As an artist, I am able to sense and feel a scientist's awkward artistry. For as Heidegger said, "Art is truth." But that statement has to be understood in the sense that all art forms are expressions of our soul, in good taste and in bad. It is the heart of the listener who can discern the wheat from the chaff.
Yesterday at 8:41pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 8:43pm
Yesterday at 8:46pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 8:46pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 8:47pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Just gonna jump in and say that I have now been called the worst person someone has ever met, and a horrible, arrogant narcissist, and I can promise that I will never do this to anyone else. I have no desire whatsoever to treat someone else that way. At a certain point, public places need to be kept safe for the majority. If making concessions involves helping someone with a disability or some such, that's fantastic and should be done if at all possible. But if someone behaves in a way that suggests danger and emotional or physical violence...that person loses certain rights. Just my feeling, of course, but something to think about.
Yesterday at 8:50pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 8:50pm
Yesterday at 8:51pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Interesting. She's always been nice to me, but you clearly have had other experiences. Frankly, Lisa Erickson does not float my boat. She once ganged up on me with a few other people: was really, really nasty in a chilling way. I remember feeling chilled to the bone thinking that she's a psychotherapist. But...whatever.
Yesterday at 8:52pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
Lisa Erickson came in a distant third after Carol for the most inappropriate person in TBC.
Yesterday at 8:53pm
Yesterday at 8:53pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
Carol has a Ph.D. in Psychology from the University of Colorado in Boulder and teaches Psych at the University of New Mexico in Los Alamos.
Yesterday at 8:55pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
I could very easily live without Michael Kischner and Miguel Lou. Super, super nasty. They have said some really awful things to me. But again... Whatever. They're not moderators. Michael is a clinical psychologist, though. Sad.
Yesterday at 8:56pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 8:56pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
^MIchael Kirschner: spelled it wrong up there. I think I'm getting it right this time. Both of them were super nasty about my "starting a religion" article, and Miguel has been nasty before. But I mean, at a certain point, that's life. Some people do suck.
Yesterday at 8:57pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
MK clearly thought your piece was dead serious. In some ways that's an honest mistake on his part. But if he were a scientist, he would have bother to falsify his hypothesis before acting as if it were the ground truth.
Yesterday at 9:01pm
Barry Kort
MK formed a haphazard Theory of Mind (ToM) about your intent that was an erroneous ToM, and then he acted as if it were the ground truth.
That's what Carol Furchner did to me. But she's a Ph.D. Psychologist who teaches the subject at the college level. A person of her training and credentials should have known better.
That's what Carol Furchner did to me. But she's a Ph.D. Psychologist who teaches the subject at the college level. A person of her training and credentials should have known better.
Yesterday at 9:03pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
He clearly has no sense of irony if he thought it was dead serious. And I understand: I have my own issues that are hard for me to understand. But when I read an article I just don't like, I keep quiet. Why lace into someone? I just don't understand that. I never lace into people and criticize them. I don't do it to my students, and I'm SUPPOSED to criticize their articles. I do criticize to help them improve: that's all to the good and what I'm supposed to do. But I am very serious about being nice about it. I think niceness is key in this world.
Yesterday at 9:04pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 9:05pm
Yesterday at 9:05pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 9:05pm
Yesterday at 9:07pm
Barry Kort
Notice how, in this video, it begins with an express disclaimer that it's a parody.
https://vimeo.com/13834044
https://
Yesterday at 9:07pm
Yesterday at 9:08pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
If someone submits to an academic journal, of course you criticize on a rigorous level. There is STILL to need to be nasty. You can say: you didn't prove X hypothesis, your argument here is groundless... Whatever. If you go on to make ad hominem attacks, like telling someone they have too much time on their hands, or they write like a high school student or a romance novelist...there's just no reason for that, even in peer review. Just reject the article and be done with it. Do it civilly. And I expect a bit of my readers. Not gonna bang them over the head and say an article is ironic. Oddly enough, I did mention that it was ironic in my Brain Café description, but apparently, some either didn't see that, or don't understand the concept of irony.
Yesterday at 9:09pmSent from Messenger
Rebecca McMillan
Hey all. I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I think we are all mature and wise enough to understand that no one is perfect and that our experiences with a given person are not necessarily how that person conducts themselves otherwise.
I respect and care about each of you but really don't want to engage in a discussion of which moderators or members of TBC do you like or dislike.
When relationships go south, it is very often because the people on all sides of the conflict were badly hurt. That was the case in your departure from TBC, Barry, and I suspect it was the case for Jesse as well.
We all tend to react when our emotional scar tissue is rubbed raw by another person, whether intentional or not.
I respect and care about each of you but really don't want to engage in a discussion of which moderators or members of TBC do you like or dislike.
When relationships go south, it is very often because the people on all sides of the conflict were badly hurt. That was the case in your departure from TBC, Barry, and I suspect it was the case for Jesse as well.
We all tend to react when our emotional scar tissue is rubbed raw by another person, whether intentional or not.
Yesterday at 9:09pmSent from Web
Stephanie Wellen Levine
^no need to be nasty
***That wasn't directed at you, Rebecca: I was correcting a typo of mine....
Yesterday at 9:10pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 9:10pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 9:10pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
It's not so much a matter of like or dislike, Rebecca. I simply take exception to a particular act by a particular person who (for whatever reason) blundered in a way that requires correction going forward.
SBK suffered for years with a blunder by the school authorities when he was a youngster. That's why such blunders have to be aired out, so they don't become a recurring pattern.
Yesterday at 9:12pm
Rebecca McMillan
If you can take a step back and look at the larger picture, Barry, I think you would see that Carol is actually quite even-handed. I know you feel she was otherwise with you, but that feeling is only part of the story.
Yesterday at 9:13pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
It's not so much that I was hurt, Rebecca. I spent two weeks in self-administered therapy writing a silly comic opera.
But others may not be able to therapize themselves so easily.
But others may not be able to therapize themselves so easily.
Yesterday at 9:14pm
Barry Kort
If she is even-handed, then let her extend to me her right hand and apologize for her erroneous diagnosis, upon which basis she evidently convinced you to treat me the way Carol just treated Jesse W.
Yesterday at 9:15pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
It was probably kind of immature of me to go on about all the TBC people I haven't liked. I just never had such an obvious opening to discuss that particular issue before. Honestly, it's not at all a big deal to me. We are all adults who need to handle some people who aren't the nicest: online communities are the least of it.
Yesterday at 9:15pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
Everyone is the Protagonist in their own life story, and everyone will encounter antagonists, which is why we end up having life stories.
Yesterday at 9:16pm
Rebecca McMillan
The bottom line is that it is virtually impossible for one person to moderate a group as large and occasionally fractious as TBC. I know because I did it on my own for 4 years. Moderation help was very much needed and I chose two people I trust and know understand the mission of TBC.
Yesterday at 9:16pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 9:18pmSent from Web
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Barry: I saw the whole thing and Jesse was a true menace. He is frightening. For that matter, he said something like: "Rebecca, come over and ban me if you want" after he made his comments. Carol said something like "Your wish is my command." It all made complete sense.
Yesterday at 9:18pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
What outraged me, Rebecca, was that you promoted the most erratic characters in that drama, the ones who blundered most egregiously. I cannot begin to say how dismayed I was to discover that. That was a much much bigger slap in the face than take a 2-week hiatus.
Yesterday at 9:18pm
Barry Kort
It would be like you had written letters of commendation the school officials who sent SBK to the outcast group.
Yesterday at 9:19pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
I think we all need to have some perspective here. I love the Brain Café: such a great group on the whole. But it's an online community. None of us should take it too overly seriously. If someone is mean, someone is mean. If we don't fit in and we're asked to leave, it would be a horrible feeling, but it's not like losing a job or getting kicked out of school or something major like that.
Yesterday at 9:20pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 9:20pm
Rebecca McMillan
I know you were disappointed in me and outraged, Barry. I'm sorry that was the case. Unfortunately, I don't have time to relitigate the case right now. I have a house to pack up and a move to Chicago to choreograph in a few short weeks.
Wishing all of you a peaceful evening and a happy 4th.
Wishing all of you a peaceful evening and a happy 4th.
Yesterday at 9:22pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
How could I take it seriously after what happened there in Sandip's thread (which I still cannot read, even though one billion people on FB can read it). Nor can I read Lisa's comments in that thread that Rebecca posted, even though a billion people on FB can read that without missing portions.
Yesterday at 9:23pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
And yes, you need help with this, Rebecca! I totally get it. My bad for getting sucked into the complaints. Good luck with everything! Had no idea you were moving: that's big!
Yesterday at 9:23pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
I don't expect you to correct those errors, Rebecca. At one time, I held out some hope for that, but that hope evaporated a year ago.
Yesterday at 9:24pm
Barry Kort
What I worry about is that young people (like Luke) will go through the same treatment I received at the hands of Lisa and Carol. And I fear you won't apprehend why that pattern persists in our culture.
Yesterday at 9:25pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
It's an online community, Barry. Your livelihood does not depend on it. Try to put it into perspective.
Yesterday at 9:27pmSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
You know, Rebecca, it wasn't lost on me that Scott's blog site is called The Blacklist. I know what it's like to be blacklisted. I know what it's like to be an outcast. And I know that turning the experience into a story is one of the best ways to therapize oneself of being treated unjustly and unfairly by the political powers that be, the powers who have no respect for the protocols of the scientific method.
Yesterday at 9:28pm
Barry Kort
I'm 71 years old and retired, Stephanie. My livelihood doesn't depend on anything. But there are young people who will experience what SBK and I experienced. Rebecca was there when Scott wrote his first book. And she was there when I wrote my first comic opera.
Rebecca cares when 121 people are killed in a terrorist attack halfway around the world. Does she care when someone's spirit is annihilated in her own Brain Cafe?
Yesterday at 9:31pm
Barry Kort
Words cannot capture her sorrow. But SBK found the words to write his book. And I found the words (and music) to write a comic opera. And Scott Myers has no shortage of words, either, to go into the story.
And Steve Silberman found the words (and compassion) to speak up for people on the Autism Spectrum.
Yesterday at 9:34pm
Rebecca McMillan
Your spirit seems very much intact, Barry. And you know very well that I do care about things and people both nearby and distant.
Yesterday at 9:34pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 9:36pm
Barry Kort
Yes, I can recover nicely from my tormentors. No big deal. But I also have an obligation to look out for the younger generations who may not be quite so resilient as me.
Yesterday at 9:36pm
Barry Kort
SBK found his voice. Stephanie has found her voice and written extensively. So has your husband. Anne-Marie writes and speak eloquently and graciously.
Me? I write shreklisch comic operas.
Me? I write shreklisch comic operas.
Yesterday at 9:39pm
Yesterday at 9:40pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Hey Barry: try to get nauseous when you get really upset. Happens to me. It's a gift.
Yesterday at 9:42pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 9:43pm
Barry Kort
I used to get Shpilkes in the Gennecktegessoink, but now I just puke up atrocious song parodies. That's how I get the bitters out of my bile.
Yesterday at 9:44pm
Barry Kort
Anyway, I sill struggling in search of a way to communicate this lesson.
As I see it, there are two kinds of educators.
There are Mentors. And there are Tormentors.
I'd rather learn how to be a Mentor.
I'm learning that from Anne-Marie.
As I see it, there are two kinds of educators.
There are Mentors. And there are Tormentors.
I'd rather learn how to be a Mentor.
I'm learning that from Anne-Marie.
Yesterday at 9:47pm
Anne-Marie LaMonde
I suspect that The Brain Cafe is too much like a Tavern, hence beware of the power of naming!
A Tavern invites anyone, sober and inebriated alike. Patrons imbibe from a variety of strong drinks and elixirs. Any idea that enters someone's mind is never too sacred for posting but may take off and land like a lead balloon with its patrons. There is a core group, I call the "Cheers" group, who hang out at the bar 24/7. The rest drop in now and again as "guest stars." Some stick around for a while, developing their part, then disappear creating their own sit-com. There is one owner and a few bouncers.
In the big scheme of things, a Tavern is no big deal. But a Tavern's historical significance, its role in harbouring fugitives and resistance fighters, criminals, bosses, and gang lords, entertainers (the inimitable Madeline Kahn), servers, bar girls and cowboys, along with philosophers, painters (Toulouse Lautrec), Jedi fighters (Luke) and Masters (Yoda) and a psychologist or two (Dostoevsky)...is not to be overlooked.
Barry's role on this earth is to teach. He has been an excellent teacher and I have gained many more insights in one year with him than I did in graduate school.
A Tavern invites anyone, sober and inebriated alike. Patrons imbibe from a variety of strong drinks and elixirs. Any idea that enters someone's mind is never too sacred for posting but may take off and land like a lead balloon with its patrons. There is a core group, I call the "Cheers" group, who hang out at the bar 24/7. The rest drop in now and again as "guest stars." Some stick around for a while, developing their part, then disappear creating their own sit-com. There is one owner and a few bouncers.
In the big scheme of things, a Tavern is no big deal. But a Tavern's historical significance, its role in harbouring fugitives and resistance fighters, criminals, bosses, and gang lords, entertainers (the inimitable Madeline Kahn), servers, bar girls and cowboys, along with philosophers, painters (Toulouse Lautrec), Jedi fighters (Luke) and Masters (Yoda) and a psychologist or two (Dostoevsky)...
Barry's role on this earth is to teach. He has been an excellent teacher and I have gained many more insights in one year with him than I did in graduate school.
Yesterday at 10:04pmSent from Web
Anne-Marie LaMonde
Alan Watts Public Group 22,450 members. 8 highly diverse Admin moderators.
Alan Watts Free Speech 12, 329 members. 2 Admin moderators https://www.facebook.com/groups/AlanWattsFreeSpeech/
I like the latter's administrative inclusion of their charter:
"Governance of the group will be performed as evenly and as transparently as possible. Administrators must abide by the same standard of conduct that this charter imposes on all participants."
Alan Watts Free Speech 12, 329 members. 2 Admin moderators https://
I like the latter's administrative inclusion of their charter:
"Governance of the group will be performed as evenly and as transparently as possible. Administrators must abide by the same standard of conduct that this charter imposes on all participants."
Yesterday at 10:05pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 10:06pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
TBC morphed from the model that Rebecca originally envisioned, with a handful of scholars reviewing academic articles on neuroscience from the peer-reviewed literature.
It morphed into a rancorous study hall where very few were attending to their studies. Eventually, Rebecca decided to cater to the masses in the cafeteria, food fights and all.
It became clear I didn't belong there.
It morphed into a rancorous study hall where very few were attending to their studies. Eventually, Rebecca decided to cater to the masses in the cafeteria, food fights and all.
It became clear I didn't belong there.
Yesterday at 10:07pm
Yesterday at 10:08pmSent from Web
Anne-Marie LaMonde
They differ in that the study hall has a focused purpose, the Tavern is a refuge...
And while Rebecca had a focused purpose, it morphed because that purpose was, for lack of a better way of saying this, too broad. Just like bad dissertation work. 
Yesterday at 10:09pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
I work well with the Intrepid Learner. I don't play well with those who are not interested in the learning process.
Yesterday at 10:09pm
Anne-Marie LaMonde
I posted the Alan Watts pages because these exemplify a very narrow purpose that can be moderated with far greater ease...
Yesterday at 10:10pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 10:11pm
Anne-Marie LaMonde
Barry, you've been barred from the Tavern because, like Pee Wee Herman you think it's possible to ask people to think reasonably. His Tequila is your parodies. The trouble is you don't dance on tip toe too well.
Yesterday at 10:12pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 10:14pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Thing is, Barry, if you want to function in a world beyond the lab or the super-selective university or some such, you have to play well somewhat with those who aren't focused on any sort of learning process. And if that's not your thing, no problem! But then don't fret about it. Find people and groups who suit you. And yes, I realize that can be super-hard. But if one particular group doesn't, that's just one group. You're describing TBC as a group that doesn't suit you, so... No big deal if you're not a member. It would be like me fretting because some adult sorority of women who like to get their nails done rejected me as a member. I'm kind of looking down on them anyhow (I shouldn't, but maybe I am) so... It's not a good fit.
Yesterday at 10:14pmSent from Messenger
Anne-Marie LaMonde
Peace out everyone...family is calling.
PS I really care for all of you deeply. I wouldn't have wanted TBC to be anything else. It came along at the right time, gave me many new friends. I will be forever beholden to you all for different reasons. You have been my teachers. All of you!
Peace out everyone...famiPS I really care for all of you deeply. I wouldn't have wanted TBC to be anything else. It came along at the right time, gave me many new friends. I will be forever beholden to you all for different reasons. You have been my teachers. All of you!
Yesterday at 10:14pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 10:14pm
Yesterday at 10:15pmSent from Messenger
Yesterday at 10:16pm
Anne-Marie LaMonde
Stephanie, the problem is when we stick to our own, we are preaching to the choir. Nothing ever changes. Universities do nothing to improve society. Politicians even less. Schools (don't talk to me about them). Artist? Christ they're the sacrificial lambs. And scientists? The religious nuts do not EVEN ear a word they say. If we do not cross pollinate, we can have no evolution. That is the law of Darwin...
Yesterday at 10:16pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 10:17pmSent from Web
Anne-Marie LaMonde
The trick is to learn how to talk to each other. And learn to play nice. Bottom line.
Yesterday at 10:17pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
Let us not overlook Caprice, the Fantastic Flying Scapegoat for Azazel.
http://encyc.org/wiki/User:Moulton/Caprice
http://
Yesterday at 10:17pm
Yesterday at 10:18pm
Stephanie Wellen Levine
True, but Barry was suggesting he didn't "play well" with those who aren't unusually intellectual. So if he doesn't enjoy playing with them, he shouldn't have to... And he shouldn't feel bad if they feel likewise about him. It's all mutual.
Yesterday at 10:18pmSent from Messenger
Anne-Marie LaMonde
And to not carry on with narcissistic woundings if we know how to heal them! And if we do not...seek to do so.
Stephanie
Barry 
Yesterday at 10:19pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
Play nice she says. Will is a fabulous musical director. Luke plays the guitar. All I can play is the buffoon.
Yesterday at 10:19pm
Yesterday at 10:20pmSent from Web
Yesterday at 10:20pm
Yesterday at 11:26pmSent from Web
Barry Kort
Maybe when Rebecca's book comes out Chaos Publishing House will feature a Boxed Set along with mine.
11 hours ago
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
So Barry: I've gotten many messages through the years that I didn't belong with various groups. If a group doesn't feel I belong, I decide that's for the best. I don't want to be somewhere if the other people don't feel I'm a good fit. I have too much self-respect not to obsess about it. If someone feels I'm not a good fit, I figure they're probably right and look for a new group where I do fit. And I well understand that it's hard to find a place where you fit, but I bet there are many hard-score science communities both online and in person where you'd really be one of the bunch. Try that! The Brain Cafe is just one group out of thousands.
11 hours agoSent from Web
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
I've been a misfit (and proud of it) pretty much my whole life.
By the way, the reason my imaginary book is entitled, "UnInvited," is because I did not seek to join TBC. I didn't even know it exist, nor did I know who Rebecca was when she opened a PM to me to invite me to join. And then, at the behest of some 15 out of 15,000 people, she uninvited me.
So it goes.
By the way, the reason my imaginary book is entitled, "UnInvited," is because I did not seek to join TBC. I didn't even know it exist, nor did I know who Rebecca was when she opened a PM to me to invite me to join. And then, at the behest of some 15 out of 15,000 people, she uninvited me.
So it goes.
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
But why is it such a big deal?? I can see feeling insulted, but there are so many other groups. Find one of those and get involved. It would be like me still holding a grudge because the kids on my street ostracized me when I was growing up. I mean, who really cares: we weren't a good fit for each other, and we went our separate ways.
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Because there are others like me who are routinely afforded the same treatment, and for them it's often a big deal to be rejected, discarded, dismissed, and made a pariah or outcast. Indeed, it's one of the most ubiquitous stories in all of human literature.
One would think that in the Brain Cafe, with some 15,000 people, a fair number of them would be keen to learn how to survive such an ordeal.
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
I honestly don't know what happened with you and TBC. I can tell you that you were very hard to deal with on my own FB page, and many friends and family members suggested that I block you. I'm so relieved that you stopped posting your blog posts on my page, and talking about systems thinking there. It was very grueling. You did stop and I'm hoping that will continue. But TBC is a huge group. If you were doing that sort of thing there, insisting that your way of thinking was the only right one, I can see how it would have been a problem. So you probably hurt a good few people. They're probably afraid to have you back. Learn from that and find new groups, and don't be so insistent about your ideas.
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Rebecca (who at the time was a stranger to me) expressly sent me a Friend Request and expressly invited me to join TBC because she liked both the content and style of what I had been writing for a long time. It's not like I went galumphing into a Biker Bar like Pee Wee Herman looking for a public phone.
https://youtu.be/UVKsd8z6scw
https://
9 hours ago
9 hours ago
Barry Kort
However, I do not insist that scientific systems thinking is the only way. It's not the way when I do bits of creative whimsy on my blogs, where I have published some two hundred song parodies, allegories, send-ups, and even a comic opera.
But when I am engaging with a Ph.D. scientist, who teaches Psych, then I expect that scholar to comport herself with scholarly ethics, in accordance with the protocols of the scientific method.
For a Ph.D. Psychologist who teaches the subject at the college level to concoct and public a haphazard Theory of Mind, unsupported by a shred of evidence, analysis or reasoning, and then rely on that bogus diagnosis to treat a fellow scholar abusively is an instance of what Dr. Evan calls "Soviet Psychology." It's an egregious breach of professional ethics.
It may have been commonplace in Soviet Russia, but it has no place in a civil society, and it has no place in a scholarly culture. I was appalled and aghast to see both Lisa and Carol engage in that reprehensible practice.
But when I am engaging with a Ph.D. scientist, who teaches Psych, then I expect that scholar to comport herself with scholarly ethics, in accordance with the protocols of the scientific method.
For a Ph.D. Psychologist who teaches the subject at the college level to concoct and public a haphazard Theory of Mind, unsupported by a shred of evidence, analysis or reasoning, and then rely on that bogus diagnosis to treat a fellow scholar abusively is an instance of what Dr. Evan calls "Soviet Psychology." It's an egregious breach of professional ethics.
It may have been commonplace in Soviet Russia, but it has no place in a civil society, and it has no place in a scholarly culture. I was appalled and aghast to see both Lisa and Carol engage in that reprehensible practice.
9 hours ago
Barry Kort
Good people do good work. If they are afraid of the likes of me, then they need to re-examine their ethics.
9 hours ago
Barry Kort
I don't expect the patrons of the Biker Bar to be ethical. But I do expect people like Sandip, Lisa, and Carol to be ethical because they hold advanced degrees in their professional field. They are role models. And when a role model goes rogue, when a role model goes off the rails with an unethical practice, that needs to be addressed in no uncertain terms.
9 hours ago
Barry Kort
If Rebecca had said, "TBC is redefining itself from a scholarly study group to a whimsical tavern scene," I would have been put on notice that psychological food fights were now the new mode of discourse.
The fact that so many people believed your parody to be a serious piece of writing, rather than a satirical whimsy tells me that to this day, many of the participants there still believe TBC to be a scholarly study group and not the Biker Bar that the patrons turned it into, with encouragement from Sandip, Lisa, Carol, and Rebecca.
The fact that so many people believed your parody to be a serious piece of writing, rather than a satirical whimsy tells me that to this day, many of the participants there still believe TBC to be a scholarly study group and not the Biker Bar that the patrons turned it into, with encouragement from Sandip, Lisa, Carol, and Rebecca.
8 hours ago
8 hours ago
Barry Kort
Fool that I was, I tried to steer it back to its advertised mission. My mistake. My blunder.
8 hours ago
You named the conversation: The Biker Cafe.
8 hours ago
7 hours ago
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Barry: you should understand something: you were posting your blog posts so frequently in my FB threads that the there sight of a new post made my stomach sink. No joke: it just sunk. And I'm sure some in TBC are tired of my articles there, but I post them in an overall, general forum, not on the private page of one person who has very clearly expressed fatigue with them. Not sure if you remember this: I would post stuff on my own private page about my spiritual explorations. You would come over and attack me, claiming that they didn't accord with systems thinking, and try to convince me that all the great spiritual thinkers were systems thinkers OVER AND OVER AND OVER. You'd say the same basic thing. You'd insist that my desire for spiritual immortality was illogical. You'd post your own blog posts over and over despite my repeated pleas that they weren't at all relevant to my concerns. I was extremely upset about it: whenever I posted something, I would hold my breath just hoping that you wouldn't participate. As I mentioned, all kinds of people were telling me that you were a menace, and I should block you. I wasn't too active in TBC when you were banned and I'm quite certain I had nothing to do with that. But if you acted similarly there, you must have driven scores of people out of their minds and poisoned the atmosphere. You should learn from that, and change, and find some new forums.
7 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Shpilkes in the Genneckegessoink? Why didn't you say so?!? I can empathize with that. I, too, have a long history of Dyspepsia: Qualms, Quease, Nausea, Disgust.
My antidote for Qualms is to craft Psalms.
My antidote for Qualms is to craft Psalms.
7 hours ago
Barry Kort
I don't recall ever saying that spiritual immortality is illogical. Ideas are immortal. That's why so many famous people gave their lives so as to make their ideas immortal.
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Barry: I told you constantly that I was sick of your comments and blog posts, and you absolutely ignored me. Just remembering is giving me a tight feeling in my stomach. I feel such relief that you stopped commenting on my stuff. Just to show you your concrete effect on one person with your online behavior.
7 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
I'm not trying to drive people insane, Stephanie. Like any educator working at the college level, I'm trying to drive people sane.
Stephanie, did you notice that after the two-week "hiatus" expired, 1) I published Rocky Horror Picture Show and 2) I did not ask Rebecca to re-admit me to TBC.
Can you provide me with three instances where you said that my comments made you physically ill?
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Well, at least in my case, all you did was irritate the living crap out of me. The phrase "systems thinking" makes me nauseous. You were about 10000000 times too insistent. I'm guessing you did similar stuff in TBC and people became upset and even enraged. Once a group of people feels sick at the thought of you participating in a discussion, it's hard to reverse the feeling. And I don't remember instances because, as I kept telling you, it was just an overall thing. I didn't enjoy your posts or your comments: I found them irrelevant and highly annoying and, for my own sanity, ignored them.
7 hours agoSent from Web
7 hours ago
Barry Kort
... those two words ...
And is that why Nora Bateson switched over to calling it "The Pattern that Connects [the dots]"?
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Even now, you're just too insistent. Just learn from the general feeling that you were hard to deal with because you kept shoving your ideas in my face and putting me down, when I tried to tell you nicely that it wasn't doing anything for me. I don't have time for specifics. Your behavior right now is starting to drive me nuts, and I have to leave.
7 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Stephanie, I am not a mind-reader nor a mystical empath. If you have some affective emotional state or interior body physiology that I am unaware of, then it follows that I am unaware of any cause and effect linkage.
"Not doing anything" means "it has no effect."
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
But I kept telling you that you were driving me insane and I had no interest in your blog posts and ideas. You didn't have to read minds. You ignored me.
7 hours agoSent from Web
7 hours ago
Barry Kort
Can you give me three instances where you expressly said it was driving you insane?
Yes, I began to ignore you, after it became clear that you were not gaining any visible benefit from my presence in your conversations.
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
Your attempt to parse words right now is annoying as hell, as is your search for specifics. It was long ago: I don't remember specifics. This right now is showing how unpleasant you are to many kinds of minds that aren't as systematic as yours. I'm a more general thinker, as are most people. I really don't have time for this and I am not enjoying our interaction. Just try to learn from that, if you want to get along better with people, at least online.
7 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Words have meaning, Stephanie.
If a patient says, "Doctor, the placebo you gave me has no effect," it does not mean, "The placebo you gave me damn near killed me."
If a patient says, "Doctor, the placebo you gave me has no effect," it does not mean, "The placebo you gave me damn near killed me."
7 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
You had plenty of highly negative effect. If I said otherwise at some point, I misspoke. You drove me physically nuts. It was awful. And I am begging you to stay off my FB page from now on, and am ending my participation on that note. I thought I might try to help you improve for next time, but clearly you and I don't connect well and it's not working.
7 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
“Words are sacred. They deserve respect. If you get the right ones, in the right order, you can nudge the world a little.” —Tom Stoppard
"Words are scary. They deserve neglect. If you get the wrong ones, in the wrong order, you can nudnik the world a lot." ~Bon Mot Stopper
"Words are scary. They deserve neglect. If you get the wrong ones, in the wrong order, you can nudnik the world a lot." ~Bon Mot Stopper
7 hours ago
7 hours ago
Barry Kort
I know how to connect the dots. But not if the dots are not visible on the page.
Other people see the dots and don't connect them at all. Why is that?
7 hours ago
Barry Kort
I have Cognitive Dissonance over two dots that don't connect.
On the one hand, Stephanie tells me she is so allergic to the notion of systems thinking that it makes her violently ill in the pit of her stomach.
And yet Stephanie is a member of John Kellden's Conversation, which is FB's largest collection of systems thinkers.
How can that be?
A search shows that Stephanie has posted there as recently as yesterday.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/conversationsthatmindandmatter/search/?query=Stephanie+Wellen+Levine
On the one hand, Stephanie tells me she is so allergic to the notion of systems thinking that it makes her violently ill in the pit of her stomach.
And yet Stephanie is a member of John Kellden's Conversation, which is FB's largest collection of systems thinkers.
How can that be?
A search shows that Stephanie has posted there as recently as yesterday.
https://
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
It is your specific behavior and refusal to give up that I felt utterly allergic to. Just thought you could learn from that for the future. People in Conversation have nearly always been extremely polite. John is a very friendly, welcoming, and genial soul who is open to all kinds of ideas. You come across very differently. I cannot give specifics any more than I already have. Your specific behavior vis a vis systems thinking drove me and many of my friends completely nuts. Maybe John is a systems thinker--I really don't know--but he's a friendly guy who knows how to lead a conversation and be friendly and likeable. Maybe look at his online behavior and try to learn from him. You are profoundly different: insistent, irritating, argumentative. For instance, you knew very well at the time that to me, spiritual immortality meant immortality of consciousness, not of ideas. You don't think that kind of immortality is worth hoping for, and that's fine. But why not let it drop, rather than coming onto my page probably hundreds of times to say the same thing over and over and over? You did know good and just made yourself an utter pest. I'm guessing you did similar things with people in TBC and I can understand why they just couldn't handle you anymore.
11 hours agoSent from Messenger
11 hours agoSent from Messenger
Barry Kort
His entire mission is systems thinking. Conversation is FB's largest community of systems thinkers. And there you are, posting links to Hevria and inviting us quirky systems thinkers to attend to them and share thoughts with you.
Surely you are not a masochist, inviting your most toxic correspondents to attend to your blogs and articles.
Surely you are not a masochist, inviting your most toxic correspondents to attend to your blogs and articles.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
You're a writer, Stephanie. Write an essay, article, poem, or opera on this issue. You have my express permission and consent to encorporate any of this dialogue.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
Feel free to name names or use transparent pseudonyms. Make it a piece of serious writing or a satire, parody, or send-up. Demonstrate to me how it's done, and I will repay you the favor.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
By the way, what is the distinction between Consciousness and Ideas? Aren't they just synonyms for the Noösphere? To my mind, the Noösphere lives forever. Elements of the Noösphere which briefly are hosted within the neural networks of my brain may or may not survive in the Public Noösphere.
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
I don't have time for this, Barry, and I suspect people in TBC felt similarly. You're kind of like a super-precocious little kid who keeps insisting that people pay attention to his ideas, and trying to drag people into various paths and nuances when they don't have the time or the inclination to go there. That's a huge part of the reason why you have problems. And don't ask for specifics because I don't have them. If you're capable of taking this as advice to help you with future interactions, great!
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Where have I ever insisted that people attend to my ideas? Like you, I put them out there with an express or implied invitation to take a look. I have no expectation or requirement that anyone pay the least attention to anything I say or write, with one exception. If someone comes to me with a question or comment or criticism, then I do expect them to attend to my response to them.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
If my thinking were so banal and obvious that everyone already knew in advance my frame of mind, there would be no need to put anything out there. You and I both put ideas and thoughts and experiences and feelings out there precisely because there is a potential audience who would be interested in learning what either of us have on our mind, without making wild-ass guesses or assumptions about the other person's frame of mind.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
All you had to say, when you put your own ideas and thoughts out there, with an express or implied invitation for responses, is to say, "Barry, I don't care for your thoughts, ideas, or comments."
You have an unalienable right to not give a damn. You have an unalienable right to utterly ignore me. Most people do just that.
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
You are completely out of touch with your behavior. You must have posted some of your blog posts 10 times or more on my FB pages, though I kept insisting I didn't find them relevant. You barraged me with your idea that the particular neural casing for a set of ideas doesn't matter: it's the ideas themselves maybe 200 times (no exaggeration) after I told you that notion just didn't speak to me. You can mention an idea once, but if someone doesn't resonate with it, step back and don't drive the poor person nuts. It reaches a point where people want nothing to do with you and do not want to give you another chance. That's how I feel: I'll have to block you if you come back onto my FB page, because you managed to sour me so profoundly. And I'm betting that's why you were banned from TBC, because many people felt similarly.
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Can you show me three examples of what you are complaining about?
I don't understand why you disbelieve in the Noösphere, since we both reside in it.
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
No! I don't have time! You need to learn to generalize. Say something once and don't ever say it again if someone expresses a lack of interest. Don't post your blog posts on other people's private FB pages. How hard is that to process?
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
I'll see your bet and raise you 10000000 Quatloos, Stephanie.
When you say, "200 times, no exaggeration" I respond by challenging you to produce just three examples.
How many times do you mention your ideas, Stephanie? Am I entitled to follow your example and mention my ideas a comparable number of times in the course of a dialogue?
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
Did you not invite people to attend to your writings, to think about them, and to respond? Are you familiar with Gregory Bateson's notion of the Double Bind?
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
No time, Barry. Just trust me. I feel like I have to treat you like a 6 year old. People just don't have time for this. You are exhausting and maddening and I am going to end this now. I never should have started up with you here. And you should know that this is how I feel because I am SURE others feel the same way.
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Feel free to insult me to your heart's content, Stephanie. As you probably know, I just translate those experiences into song parodies, send-ups, faux book covers and comic operas. That's how I process my own Dyspepsia.
Have you asked Anne-Marie how she feels?
Or how John Kellden feels?
11 hours ago
Stephanie Wellen Levine
My intent is not to insult, but to be 100% honest about the extreme difficulty of interacting with you, because you are upset about getting ostracized from a group that was important to you. I'm just giving you a sense for why it happened.
11 hours agoSent from Web
Barry Kort
Yes, I grok that systems thinking is difficult. It's harder than rocket science. That's why we live in a profoundly dysfunctional, erratic, and unethical culture. Most people find it beyond their ken to awaken and activate the Ninth Intelligence.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
Perhaps I misjudged you. I believed (perhaps erroneously) that you were an exponent of applications of the Ninth Intelligence.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
So let me ask you point blank, Stephanie ...
Do you or do you not embrace the tools for thought and derivative applications of the faculties of the Ninth Intelligence?
Do you or do you not embrace the tools for thought and derivative applications of the faculties of the Ninth Intelligence?
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
I am aware that you are enamored of Flights of Fancy and Chimeras of the Imagination. Perhaps activating the faculties of the Ninth Intelligence would give you pause and put you into a state of Cognitive Dissonance regarding your idiosyncratic Flights of Fancy and Chimeras of the Imagination.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
By the way, let me disabuse you of an erroneous ToM. I am not upset about getting ostracized from TBC. After all, a fortnight after that event, I wrote an uproarious (if shreklisch) comic opera about it. What I'm upset about is the pattern of which my dot in the pattern was instructive. What I'm upset about is that it means that Lisa, Carol, and Rebecca would blithely repeat that practice to members of SBK's neurotribe. That's what I'm disturbed about.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
What that means is that the practice is so mindless and so ingrained in the GateKeeping Culture that the likes of people like me (whom Steve Silberman writes brilliantly about) will continue to be treated abusively for the foreseeable future. And that means we have to teach our neurotribe how to release the Shpilkes in the Gennecktegessoink with Whimiscal Flights of Fancy, Novels Featuring Chimeras of the Imagination, Song Parodies, Allegories, Parables, Poetry, and Comic Operas. It means we have to teach ourselves how to go into the story.
11 hours ago
Barry Kort
Oh yes. And books. Especially books.
http://moultonlava.blogspot.com/2015/10/systemic-blunders.html
http://
11 hours ago
Rebecca McMillan left the group.
